It seems fairly presumptuous of you to assume that your server can’t pay their rent or buy groceries, especially when the servers make more off of tips than most people make with their hourly wage. And I’m not sure where you think it’s my decision whether they deserve money for their work, I’m not their employer. It seems to me like you think customers should not only pay for something but should also pay the employees serving it to them. Where does the responsibility come in for the employer? Also, at some point personal responsibility comes into play, you can’t expect everyone to give you handouts all the time.
I worked in fine dining for 10 years. So no, it’s not presumptuous of me because I am speaking from personal experience based on my own life as well as many, many people I have known. I’d say that I’m one of the least presumptuous people in this thread when it comes to this topic.
It would be great if employers would pay servers a living wage, but that simply isn’t the way things actually work in restaurants.
Personal responsibility? Handouts??! Tell you what, how about you go to work for 8 hours every day and then have your business’s clients decide whether or not you deserve any money at all for the work you do. Would you say you’re just asking for a handout, or would you say that you deserve to be paid for the work you did?
The thing is, it’s your BUSINESS’s clients, not yours. You said so yourself just now. You work for the business, which sells services to the clients. At no point the clients should pay you directly.
Using my profession as a software developer (and putting aside the salary of a developer because I know it’s not comparable in terms of salaries, but bear with me for the sake of the example) - sometimes clients pay money for new features that they want our service to have. I do all the work of researching it, understanding the requirements, I design the feature, write code for it, do automation tests for it, deploy it, and enable it - all for my client. It took me 3 months.
But hey, I did all that and the client never paid me. They paid the place I work for. How come? I would love to get 15% of the money the customer paid. But it’s just not happening. I do not get a tip.
But that’s fine. Because this is how it works in almost all industries. A client pays the business. The business hires workers and pays them. The workers keep the place running by doing their jobs which ends up in sales.
We (as a society) don’t pay tips to a doctor doing a physical exam on us. We don’t pay tips to a city worker approving our registrations. We don’t pay tips to a university professor teaching us a course. Those all examples of professions that include some kind of a frontal service to clients, yet they never expect it either, because they get properly paid by the workplace.
Now, it is not the same for waiters and bartenders. They expect tips. You are a jerk and rude if you don’t tip, and we don’t want you here. Don’t you dare give our business money if you aren’t going to give some of it to us as well.
So why is this so different from the other professions? I would wager the main issue stems from the terrible minimum wages, forcing waiters so look for alternatives. The alternatives ended up being very good for the employers, so they reinforced it and made it the standard. The more they can convince everyone to tip, the more they shift the “pay the worker” part of the business to the client. Suddenly the client is paying for both the service they bought AND the worker. The business is very happy that they get to keep more money to themselves and the responsibility is now the client’s.
It has now became so normalized in USA that people will fight to keep this new normal. Instead people should strive to make those businesses work just like any other business by giving them fair wages.
I basically agree with your point of view, but the fact of the matter is that the way servers are paid is an exception to the rule. It’s unlike other businesses, and even on a federal level the wage laws are different specifically for servers.
It’s an issue that’s a lot more complex to solve than just stiffing your server and saying, “I’ve done my part to fix things!”
Why am I not surprised with your total lack of empathy?
If you don’t like tipping and actually believe that people should be paid for the work they do, then don’t eat at restaurants. Show those restaurant owners why they should pay people, and be the change you want to see in the world. Otherwise, you’re just an asshole.
I certainly have empathy, it’s just located in a different spot than yours. We both want the same thing, servers to get what they deserve. You though think that I customer should pay the wages of an employee which makes absolutely no sense to me. To me the employer, the one that actually making money, should be the one to pay their employee. I’m just trying to figure out why you think the way you do.
I was never trying to justify the arrangement where the employer doesn’t pay the employee. However, the reality of the situation is that it doesn’t happen that way. In the U.S., at least, servers make their living almost exclusively by being tipped. Yeah, it’s shitty of employers not to offer a better wage, but it’s equally shitty for people to go to restaurants–fully aware that servers need tips to make ends meet–without tipping servers.
It seems fairly presumptuous of you to assume that your server can’t pay their rent or buy groceries, especially when the servers make more off of tips than most people make with their hourly wage. And I’m not sure where you think it’s my decision whether they deserve money for their work, I’m not their employer. It seems to me like you think customers should not only pay for something but should also pay the employees serving it to them. Where does the responsibility come in for the employer? Also, at some point personal responsibility comes into play, you can’t expect everyone to give you handouts all the time.
I worked in fine dining for 10 years. So no, it’s not presumptuous of me because I am speaking from personal experience based on my own life as well as many, many people I have known. I’d say that I’m one of the least presumptuous people in this thread when it comes to this topic.
It would be great if employers would pay servers a living wage, but that simply isn’t the way things actually work in restaurants.
Personal responsibility? Handouts??! Tell you what, how about you go to work for 8 hours every day and then have your business’s clients decide whether or not you deserve any money at all for the work you do. Would you say you’re just asking for a handout, or would you say that you deserve to be paid for the work you did?
The thing is, it’s your BUSINESS’s clients, not yours. You said so yourself just now. You work for the business, which sells services to the clients. At no point the clients should pay you directly.
Using my profession as a software developer (and putting aside the salary of a developer because I know it’s not comparable in terms of salaries, but bear with me for the sake of the example) - sometimes clients pay money for new features that they want our service to have. I do all the work of researching it, understanding the requirements, I design the feature, write code for it, do automation tests for it, deploy it, and enable it - all for my client. It took me 3 months.
But hey, I did all that and the client never paid me. They paid the place I work for. How come? I would love to get 15% of the money the customer paid. But it’s just not happening. I do not get a tip.
But that’s fine. Because this is how it works in almost all industries. A client pays the business. The business hires workers and pays them. The workers keep the place running by doing their jobs which ends up in sales.
We (as a society) don’t pay tips to a doctor doing a physical exam on us. We don’t pay tips to a city worker approving our registrations. We don’t pay tips to a university professor teaching us a course. Those all examples of professions that include some kind of a frontal service to clients, yet they never expect it either, because they get properly paid by the workplace.
Now, it is not the same for waiters and bartenders. They expect tips. You are a jerk and rude if you don’t tip, and we don’t want you here. Don’t you dare give our business money if you aren’t going to give some of it to us as well.
So why is this so different from the other professions? I would wager the main issue stems from the terrible minimum wages, forcing waiters so look for alternatives. The alternatives ended up being very good for the employers, so they reinforced it and made it the standard. The more they can convince everyone to tip, the more they shift the “pay the worker” part of the business to the client. Suddenly the client is paying for both the service they bought AND the worker. The business is very happy that they get to keep more money to themselves and the responsibility is now the client’s.
It has now became so normalized in USA that people will fight to keep this new normal. Instead people should strive to make those businesses work just like any other business by giving them fair wages.
I basically agree with your point of view, but the fact of the matter is that the way servers are paid is an exception to the rule. It’s unlike other businesses, and even on a federal level the wage laws are different specifically for servers.
It’s an issue that’s a lot more complex to solve than just stiffing your server and saying, “I’ve done my part to fix things!”
Oh, for sure. It’s not something you, I, or just any group of people can change. It needs to change from upside down.
The issue is that changes like that don’t happen unless they are almost forced to by really big groups demanding it.
I would be questioning why I expect my clients to pay me when that’s what my employer does.
Why am I not surprised with your total lack of empathy?
If you don’t like tipping and actually believe that people should be paid for the work they do, then don’t eat at restaurants. Show those restaurant owners why they should pay people, and be the change you want to see in the world. Otherwise, you’re just an asshole.
I certainly have empathy, it’s just located in a different spot than yours. We both want the same thing, servers to get what they deserve. You though think that I customer should pay the wages of an employee which makes absolutely no sense to me. To me the employer, the one that actually making money, should be the one to pay their employee. I’m just trying to figure out why you think the way you do.
I was never trying to justify the arrangement where the employer doesn’t pay the employee. However, the reality of the situation is that it doesn’t happen that way. In the U.S., at least, servers make their living almost exclusively by being tipped. Yeah, it’s shitty of employers not to offer a better wage, but it’s equally shitty for people to go to restaurants–fully aware that servers need tips to make ends meet–without tipping servers.