Due to the severity of the situation and the fast flowing news cycle, we have decided to create a general megathread for discussion regarding the conflict.
Informal/Satirical news sources are not allowed on the main feed of the community but you are free to post them in this thread.
Please remember that all community and instance rules apply to this thread hence keep is civil.
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Some facts about the Gaza Strip:
- Population: ~2.3 Million
- Area: 365 km² (141 sq mi)
- 41 km (25 mi) long, from 6 to 12 km (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide
- Population density: ~6300/km² 1
Gaza is very densely populated. In Gaza live as many people as in Houston. But Houston has an area of 1658.6 km² (640.4 sq mi). Thus Gaza has nearly five times the population density of Houston. New York City is the only city in the US with a population of more than a million and a higher population density than Gaza. 2 The tallest building in Palestine stands at 76.1 m (255 ft). 3
A little less than half of the population of Gaza is made up of children. 4
There are only three (“legal”) ways in and out of Gaza:
- Rafah Crossing into Egypt in the south
- Kerem Shalom Crossing into Israel in the south
- Erez Crossing into Israel in the north
Gaza has a very small port. It can only be used by small fisher boats. 5
Israel built a wall and fences around Gaza. 6
IDF misinformation from the start of the conflict until now:
1. Hamas beheaded forty babies
Context: the reports of Hamas beheading babies came from an interview by i24 News of an IDF commander. This quickly spread through Western media outlets such as CNN, NBC, MSNBC, FOX News, the Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc. I haven’t done a comprehensive sweep of who picked up the story and who didn’t (and of course now it’s much harder to do so because of retractions, edits, my lack of direct TV access, and SEO), but from what I can tell AP News and Al Jazeera have been relatively reliable.
Lack of evidence: 6 days ago, Anadolu (Turkish state-owned media) reported that: Israeli army says it does not have ‘confirmation’ about allegations that ‘Hamas beheaded babies’. This was later confirmed by other sources.
Misinformation: 5 days ago, Biden stated "I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed, pictures of terrorists beheading children,” said Biden, who described Saturday’s attack as the “deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust”. The White House later posted a retraction of this claim: "A White House spokesperson later clarified that US officials and the president have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently,” The Post reported on Wednesday.
2. Shani Louk, claimed to be naked, dead, and sexually assaulted
Context: images circulated online about a video purporting to show Shani Louk, a German national attending the Nova EDM festival, on the back of a truck, face-down. Claims that she appeared to be naked, dead, and sexually assaulted circulated on the same media sources discussed above.
Misinformation: given the videos we have, we know with a decent amount of certainty that the video being shown is of Shani Louk. However:
A. She’s clearly not naked in the video and you can see that she is wearing black shorts as well as boots. A top is also visible (but she is face-down, so we can’t see much of it). Neither her shorts nor her boots appeared to have been removed. From what I can tell, she was initially wearing a long skirt that was likely lost in the chaos.
B. Her family claims that she is alive and receiving medical attention at a hospital in Gaza, which does explain why they would be transporting her. There is visible blood on the back of her head, but she does not seem to be bleeding profusely when the video was taken.
C. I will not comment on whether or not she was sexually assaulted.
3. 260 dead Israelis at EDM festival
Context: many news sources independently verified that 260 bodies were pulled from the EDM festival. Many sources reported that this was an act of terror with no strategic objective and a massacre of innocent civilians.
Lack of context: Nova was held in Kibbutz Re’im, mere minutes from Gaza, and also mere minutes from the IDF Gaza Division’s Re’im base. Tanks are clearly visible in videos leaving the festival, as are armed personnel. Hebrew-language interviews of released prisoners are providing more insight into these attacks, but I do not speak Hebrew so I will refrain from commenting on this further. Hamas has claimed that fighters were told to avoid harming or killing civilians.
Potential misinformation: Hamas claiming that fighters were told to avoid harming civilians does not mean that Hamas fighters did not harm civilians, obviously.
Potential misinformation: the reports indicate that 260 bodies were found, but their origin has not been confirmed. We know that armed personnel discharged their weapons against Hamas fighters (and vice-versa). How many of the dead are civilians, IDF, armed security, or Hamas?
Much of the media coverage on this conflict has been used to spread misinformation, even from traditionally “reliable” sources in the Western sphere. As a result, I would strongly recommend supplementing coverage of these events with those outside the Western sphere. The journalism being done is lazy.
I had a frustrating conversation with one person around the “40 beheaded babies” claim. Snopes dug into the claim. The IDF never I think we’ll never be able to verify that particular claim. The flip side is that in the end, a dead baby is a dead baby regardless of how it got that way. My objection is that facts matter, particularly with claims of particular brutality or when the situation is a powder keg.
Hamas has claimed that fighters were told to avoid harming or killing civilians.
I don’t buy this for one minute. Not a minute. Palestinian civilian casualties are high because Hamas and other organizations operate from inside of neighborhoods as guerrilla forces. Israel has separate forces. You wouldn’t get massive civilian casualties from Hamas targeting the IDF’s bases. They can make all the claims they want, but it doesn’t fit with the facts.
A lot of these settlements have either contracters or the IDF directly providing security. So the idea that Hamas could have broken out of Gaza and just found all the soldiers neatly in their bases seems unbelievable. The IDF is an occupying force, not a European military where it’s just some dudes with their thumbs up their asses in a barracks near some nature reserve.
Ultimately we can’t know how Hamas leadership told their soldiers to behave. But they do have a clear incentives not to condone the killing of civilians: they want to capture hostages and use them as leverage. They need to create the expectation that these hostages are treated fairly and can be returned safely so that it is entirely up to Israel whether it wants those civilians to die.
Tragically, civilians always die in wars. Both sides always propagandise this to claim that it is the other side that is just killing civilians as policy. The facts however, are abundantly clear when it comes to the question of which side shows the greater disregard for civilian casualties.
The impression I had gotten from interviews (Al Jazeera, the Guardian, Haaretz) was that Israeli civilian police were there and exchanged fire with Hamas but that it was HOURS before they came across any IDF personnel. I’ve been focusing on this less as the time goes on and the catastrophic situation in Gaza gets worse and worse, so maybe further sources have come out regarding the Nova Festival.
Regardless I would like to see consequences to the people who authorized a festival so close to Gaza in the first place…
That’s the part that really doesn’t make sense to me.
There’s literally an active military base RIGHT THERE. It’s literally based in Re’im. There’s no way the IDF could be that incompetent. It’s not like forces had to be deployed from elsewhere in the country.
Supposedly, they had another location in mind but it fell through so they had to use Re’im with two days notice.
I don’t know how to confirm this myself but I have read and heard that before anything else, after it was known Hamas fighters were inside Israeli territory, the IDF first move militarily was to start bombing Gaza. No one can argue honestly that the IDF defends Israelis - its literally just the most reactionary of religious Zionists that they serve.
Secular Jewish Israelis? Nah they can fend for themselves for a few hours, we’ve gotta attack Palestinian civilians, says the IDF. And that’s not even bringing up that 20% of Israeli citizens ARE ARABS, some of whom were also attacked in their homes in Southern Israel 10 days ago, but of course the same people calling Hamas human animals will go after them next (not to suggest they aren’t already, only that Gazans face more immediate extermination).
That sounds pretty correct. From what I remember of the reporting at the time, we heard of the offensive, then immediately we had multiple reports, videos, and streams of the IDF bombarding Gaza.
Archbishop says Israel warned Gaza hospital three days in a row.
In a press conference, Anglican Archbishop in Jerusalem, Hosam Naoum, said the al-Ahli al-Arabi Baptist Hospital in Gaza was warned on Saturday, Sunday and Monday by the Israeli army to evacuate. It was then bombed on Tuesday.
Oh wow. They’re really trying to shove words in his mouth. He confirmed the facts he knew to be true, then whoever is asking the questions is trying to put together a narrative.
Israeli think tank lays out a blueprint for the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza
An Israeli think tank with ties to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a report on October 17 promoting the “unique and rare opportunity” for the “relocation and final settlement of the entire Gaza population.”
Israel is doing a genocide, the us and its puppets are funding or arming the genociders, and Europe is banning protests of the genocide.
Western capitalist hegemony is a fascistic death cult that will destroy us all unless we destroy it first, and every day we don’t millions are condemned to horrific deaths
I really wish I could have a permanent record of everything every liberal has ever said so I could easily demonstrate how full of shit they are in 10 to 20 years when they all collectively deny ever having supported Israel through the Palestinian genocide.
So far, it was only France that banned pro-Palestinean protests. But the French government is also far right, so it makes sense. Don’t equate their fascism to the rest of Europe, please.
I understand its not about Europe but Switzerland banned several protests in big cities as well.
Really? That honestly surprises me. Also means that I’m not really up-to-date anymore.
Apologies for the German Language, it states several were banned, one in the capitol allowed.
I’m German, so no language barrier. Thanks!
Edit: Holy hell, that poll. 65% support the ban of pro-Palestine demos because it’s “too touchy”. Media did a great job programming the public to think “pro-Palestine” is on par with “pro-Hamas”.
Germany has been one of Israel’s staunchest supporters all throughout the Cold War - despite the fact that Germany’s security services have been festering swamps of nazi-ideology before all the WW2 rubble had been carted away.
The link is to a Swiss newspaper tho, which is why I was surprised.
One of the largest worker unions in Germany (ver.di) proudly and openly proclaims that they stand with Israel and they have been doing that for years. Now why are they doing this instead of focusing on their actual purpose? Senseless activism to avoid being labeled as nazis. In Germany, being a nazi is way worse than supporting a genocide.
When your illegitimate regime is definitely not losing every front including the information front and is definitely not about to eat a major L: Israel has announced that consuming “Hamas media” will now be a federal offense punishable by a year in prison, even if no actions were taken. Visiting Hamas websites is considered an offense.
Here’s the original article
I dont see anything like what you’re stating mentiond Please don’t spread misinformation
That and the outright censorship you see escalating all over the western world points to one thing - the massive failure of the western propaganda model itself.
Only Democracy* in the Middle East, bby!
*Rules and conditions may apply.
WTF?
I am going to use this thread to share a plethora of related links that should share insight on the nature of this conflict.
Articles
Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs
Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew
Perspectives
Dr. Gabor Maté (Holocaust Survivor)
^At 1:43:50, Finklestein asserts that Israel would bomb a residential area, wait for people to come out and call an ambulance, and then bomb the ambulance.
Testimonials
Israeli Soldier’s Explosive Tell-All: “Palestinians are right to resist” - Former IDF soldier talks about how he realized that his actions were perpetuating apartheid, and that Palestinians were right to resist through any means.
Breaking the Silence - Israeli NGO where IDF veterans testify their experiences. Some examples:
This is it for the list for now. If you find any other notable background information, feel free to share.
Sexual Violence
Events:
‘I Saw Fit to Remove Her From the World’
Using an Attack Dog, Israeli Women Soldiers Forced Palestinian Women to Undress | The untold story of the abuse of Palestinian women in Hebron
Opinion pieces:
How colonizers weaponize rape: reflections from the Palestinian case
Nakba74: Rethinking Zionism as a gendered colonial enterprise
Hananya Naftali proudly boasted that Israel bombed Gaza’s ah-Ahli hospital before deleting and two minutes later lying that Hamas did it. He works directly under Netanyahu.
https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1714357542879457390
Got community noted
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714346975326330957
It’s insane how evil these people are.
Water runs out at United Nations shelters in Gaza
Israel has cut off the flow of food, medicine, water and electricity to Gaza, pounded neighborhoods with airstrikes and told the estimated 1 million residents of the north to flee south ahead of Israel’s planned attack. The Gaza Health Ministry said more than 2,300 Palestinians have been killed since the fighting erupted last weekend.
U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan told CNN on Sunday that Israeli officials told him they had turned the water back on in southern Gaza. But the spokesman for Israel’s energy and water ministry, Adir Dahan, said it was only flowing at a single location in southern Gaza. Aid workers in Gaza said they had not yet seen evidence the water was back and a Gaza government spokesperson said it was not flowing.
Hmm! Why would the US spread Israeli misinformation? It’s a mystery! 🙃
About half a million Gaza residents have taken refuge in U.N. shelters across the territory and are running out of water, said Juliette Touma, a spokesperson for the U.N.’s Palestinian refugee agency, known by the acronym UNRWA. “Gaza is running dry,” she said, adding that U.N. teams have also begun to ration water.
Touma said a quarter of a million people in Gaza moved to shelters over the past 24 hours, the majority of which are U.N. schools where “clean water has actually run out,” said Inas Hamdan, another UNRWA spokeswoman.
Across Gaza, families rationed dwindling water supplies, with many forced to drink dirty or brackish water. Many resorted to going to dirty wells and the sea, increasing the risk of dehydration, water borne diseases and more deaths.
“I am very happy that I was able to brush my teeth today, can you imagine what lengths we have reached?” said Shaima al-Farra, in Khan Younis.
Settlers are sick.
Everyone knows that the UN is a Hamas front. Providing the UN with water is akin to providing Hamas with the heads of babies.
Might want to add a /s tag there or something, poe’s law
The fact that I have to is a condemnation of this community.
Yeah, we are trying to very actively crack down on it but you know how things are with the influx
I’m curious what disinformation you’re talking about given what you quoted? And you implied that it is known, but why do you think said disinformation would be spread?
Also, there are no settlers in Gaza. Haven’t been for around 18 years.
The misinformation is the Zionist lie that they turned the water back on, when actual people on the ground in Gaza are telling us they don’t have water.
Also, everyone living on stolen Palestinian land and benefiting from land theft and apartheid is a settler. From the river to the sea.
Israeli jets confirmed operating in the area based on flares. Hamas rockets confirmed to be firing from an entirely different section of Gaza.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046?t=4WP3_stVEo27r23eEc2Exg&s=19
Several experts confirm Hamas’ view to @Channel4News that the audio tape of “Hamas” operatives talking about the missile malfunction is a fake . They say the tone, syntax, accent and idiom are absurd
apologies for the off topic, but this thread shows as 11 hours old and I only see 7 top level comments. for a major event mega thread I expected much more and I’m wondering if I’m doing Lemmy wrong somehow?
lemmy.ca defederated from hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, who are driving top-level comments on here. Since you can’t see the top-level comments, you also can’t see any discussion below.
I opposed lemmy.ca’s decision to defederated from hexbear based on the perceived behaviour of hexbear users on other instances for exactly this reason: I think an instance’s role is to police the actions of users posting to that instance, not to police their users’ exposure to other instances.
As a counterpoint, I don’t mind the hexbear and lemmygrad posts being hidden from view. These people have no interest in good faith arguments and instead derail every post into irrelevant arguments filled with half-truths or outright disinformation.
Server instances deciding independently whether or not to defederate gives people the option to either use an instance where they won’t see this garbage or one where they do. Sounds like a win-win to me.
Damn hexbear and lemmygrad really became the new “commie”
It’s really shone a light on how little the West actually understands communism tbh
Y’all are talking past each other because you’re operating on entirely different assumptions about what the same words mean
deleted by creator
Communism is when I don’t have to work, and also “the West TM” bad. /s
Hexbear and Lemmygrad dont have antiwork stances? Also the US empire is the largest source of violence in the world today.
These people have no interest in good faith arguments and instead derail every post into irrelevant arguments filled with half-truths or outright disinformation.
I haven’t really seen any evidence of this and worldnews gets a lot of hexbear and lemmygrad posters. It just comes off as red-scaring to me.
Well a lot of the rest of Lemmy have seen numerous examples of it which is why they keep getting defederated from instances. This being about communism is a red herring as the lemmy.ml is run by self-proclaimed communists.
Furthermore, I rarely ever see hexbear users actually discussing communism or any other economic system. Typically it’s just ad hominem remarks about “the west,” strawman arguments, concern trolling as if they’re innocent victims, and carrying water for the Chinese and Russian governments.
Well a lot of the rest of Lemmy have seen numerous examples of it which is why they keep getting defederated from instances.
NGL the users of the big instances that have defederated like .world are the majority of comments I have to delete here for overt racism, supporting genocide, etc. You can check the modlog if you dont believe me.
I’m sorry, I dont really trust the opinion of the admins of instances overflowing with calls for violence and racism.
This being about communism is a red herring as the lemmy.ml is run by self-proclaimed communists.
I’ve seen the admins be called tankies by the same people complaining about hexbear and grad.
Furthermore, I rarely ever see hexbear users actually discussing communism or any other economic system. Typically it’s just ad hominem remarks about “the west,” strawman arguments, concern trolling as if they’re innocent victims, and carrying water for the Chinese and Russian governments.
Yeah this comes off to me as someone who had read a bunch of their comments with no background understanding of why the US empire is the largest purveyor of violence in the world today. I cannot blame them for not having the resources or authority to educate everyone they encounter.
Seems like a mistake to place the danger zone on that side of the Kerem Shalom goods crossing, but then again they left that moron Netanyahu in charge so I’m sure that’s no mistake.
I heard Egypt actually warned Israel of the exact date of the initial attack and Israel still failed to react, it becomes harder every day to think this whole war wasn’t the intention of Israel leadership.
The likelihood Israel didn’t know of the attack shrinks by the day.
