People who condemn Hamas need to reconcile with this:
Those people were once children who were traumatized by occupation. Maybe they saw their parents die. Maybe they saw their siblings die. Maybe it was their uncle or their best friends. Maybe they were buried under rubble for days and barely survived. Maybe they were shot at. Maybe they saw their homes destroyed.
And then they had to just keep living under occupation. Go through checkpoints, live in cramped conditions, ration their own food, and know that their life expectancy is 40.
Those are the people who attacked Israel. Can you even imagine the pain and terror and hate they must feel? Little traumas and humiliations every day of their lives, only differentiated by spikes of severe trauma when the IDF mows the lawn.
I’d have killed myself. These people are incredible for hanging on despite everything. How dare you judge them?
So committing war crimes is the answer?
Both sides are terrorists, flat-out.
war crimes my ass, that only applies to the ebil terrorist people, while israel gets a slap on the wrist for committing a fucking holocaust
Don’t forget a strong dose of propaganda and radicalisation towards violence, along with training in Iran. This wasn’t exactly an emotional outburst from people pushed to the brink, it was a heavily coordinated strike planned months in advance.
This actually makes it all the more horrible, because it’s quite clear from the outside that the strike would not achieve any of their objectives for the Palestinian people. It begs the question: who wanted this to happen, who encouraged them?
You say the strike would not achieve any of their objectives, but I challenge you to name a single alternative that would.
Lmfao you’re challenging me to resolve the Israeli/Palestine dispute, one which has gone on for 140 years? That’s an incredibly disengenous way to argue, you’re setting me up to lose unless I’m better than almost every human being that’s tried before.
In any case, I’ll shoot.
Israel is bigger than Palestine in terms of military might - even when you include full support of other Arab nations. Thus, the only way to really overcome them is to garner support from outside. To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel. This is completely undermined by indescriminate strikes into foreign territory or strikes that explicitly target civilians.
Similarly, support for Israel is undermined by their strikes into Palestinian territory. However, they’ve been far more effective at controlling the narrative to prevent losing so much support.
Vietnam was largely undone because people in the US turned against the war - there was no support behind it. The same could probably be argued with other wars. As it stands, many of the actions by Hamas and Palestinian military groups provide plenty of plausible justification for those supporting Israel.
I’m challenging you to give Hamas an alternative. That’s it.
To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel.
Did you forget when Palestinians held peaceful marches and Israeli snipers blew their knees out? It didn’t matter. It never does.
You sound like Ghandi telling the Jews that they should have resisted the Nazis with nonviolence and peaceful demonstration. Grow up.
And do you actually honestly think that support from America or various European countries has anything at all to do with moral integrity? Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq. Did American appetites for conquest and war end because Al Qaeda held peaceful marches and hunger strikes?
Should Ukrainians hold peaceful demonstrations and let themselves be sitting targets for Russian bombs?
What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society. They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it. They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.
Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?
Fair points, you’ve got my upvote.
Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq.
They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.
What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society.
This was poignant timing, yes.
They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it.
This was mostly luck, although there some remote possibility of a wider conspiracy.
They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.
I give 50/50 odds on whether this was coincidence or not. Suffice it to say, the main reason for the timing is almost certainly to do with Netanyahu - who has previously promoted support of Hamas.
Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?
I acknowledge that the strike was incredibly effective, moreso than even the people doing it thought it would be. But I feel like the strike was ultimately more in pursuit of indirect political objectives rather than military objectives. In that sense, it has arguably served Israel more than it has served Palestine - Palestine is under seige, likely to lose land, Netanyahu is still in power and while the polls put Netanyahu down they aren’t driving meaningful change. It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.
They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.
Well a lot of them were “civilian” IDF reservists and veterans, but yes, civilian casualties definitely soured liberal support for Palestinian resistance (and gave the IDF ammo for fake atrocity propaganda, like the nonsense about beheading 40 babies and mass rape and shit like that). I don’t think it’s entirely alienated them from all support, though. I still see a lot of support for Palestine and resistance to Israel’s response, especially in the Global South. This feels different than the psychotic response America had to 9/11, y’know?
It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.
It comes down to how things escalate with the imminent ground invasion. What will Hezbollah do? What will Iran do? What will Jordan do? Egypt? The Taliban government? Hell, what will the big dogs like Saudi Arabia do? We don’t know, but Hamas is politically savvy.
I would hesitate to give Hamas credit for being politically savvy, more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.
The ground invasion is such bullshit though. I really hate how Israel keep making out that they’re “defending themselves”, when they’re clearly not in a defensive posture. The time for defense was 7 October, when it was conspicuously absent. They’re performing a counter-attack, into foreign territory, with only a vague attempt at focusing on military targets.
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Historically, settler-colonial occupations are usually resolved with violence. Either resolved by the colonized people rising up against their oppressors… or the settlers genociding all of the occupied people until there’s nothing but a few reservations of them left.
And, honestly, I think we have at most a decade before WW3 resets the entire board anyway so…
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its bleak, yeah, but it always was, this is them still fighting back
