I am a Linux user, I dual boot Kubuntu and Windows.
On Friday I bought a new game on steam, checked on protondb and it is platinum, tried to launch it and it failed. I tried 4 different proton compatability modes and it failed to launch each time. While I am a sysadmin and am well capable of troubleshooting it, I really just wanted to play that game so I rebooted into windows.
If I hadn’t had that other win11 SSD in my machine, I would have had to not play that game because I had no energy to troubleshoot that on a friday night after fighting with linux all day at work.
Tldr: some times Linux is a seemless as Windows, but not always, even when it is supposed to be and is for others. Even if you have that activate windows watermark.
no, im a linux user. if someone doesnt want to dedicate time to adopt and learn, linux isnt “easier”. even if linux was as easy as windows (idk it can even be compared tbh); its different. different requires time and effort, if someone cant do that (for any reason, this isnt a judgement), its not an easy move.
I don’t disagree in general. However, my mom has been running Linux with a Windows XP skin for almost 8 years now without knowing she’s using Linux. Literally just keeps her from running a random .exe and she does everything on a browser anyway.
In my experience, it’s usually power users or basic users with very specific application requirements, who have trouble moving between operating systems. There’s usually a FOSS alternative to those applications, but often requires reworking a workflow or upskilling more than they want to. But they’re still basic users so it’s more a speed bump than a road block.
So yeah, most people can switch to MacOS without an issue, and the vast majority of those can switch to a distro like Fedora or Ubuntu and quickly feel comfortable.
Power users get stuck in this situation where they’ve learned how to do advanced things in Windows, have things tweaked to support more complex and peculiar workflows, but often don’t understand the actual concepts behind them. And even if they do understand the concepts, they still have to learn the alternatives in a new OS, and rebuild their workflows. Now, there’s a lot more ability to learn behind the scenes about the why and how with Linux and BSD, so I’d argue they’d be better off to just suck it up and get started, and they’ll be better off before long.
If someone is already informed enough to care about having a local account under Windows, seek out ways to circumvent the normal account procedure and feels comfortable applying edits to the registry, I think they have already excluded themselves from the category of people who are unwilling to invest time and effort to get their computer/OS running how they want.
What you wrote may apply to the general public, but not for the circumstances discussed in the post you’re replying to.
You need to dedicate time to adopt and learn how to get a local account on Windows and clear out the bullshit you don’t want.
I recently switched to Linux. At first I was surprised at how easy it was to set up and get working, then I was annoyed at having to look up how to do every little thing I know how to do on Windows and considered switching back.
Then I booted into Windows and in less than 10 minutes was fed up the whole OS. I realized I had to look up things just as often as I was on Linux, but in Linux it was because I didn’t know where it was, where as on Windows it was actively hidden from me and fighting me every step of the way.
Windows is in no way easier, It’s just the struggle you’ve gotten so used to fighting with every single day that you’ve forgotten it exists.
Then I booted into Windows and in less than 10 minutes was fed up the whole OS. I realized I had to look up things just as often as I was on Linux, but in Linux it was because I didn’t know where it was, where as on Windows it was actively hidden from me and fighting me every step of the way.
Windows is in no way easier, It’s just the struggle you’ve gotten so used to fighting with every single day that you’ve forgotten it exists.
I’m not even going to sugarcoat it, Windows treats you like you’re a freakin’ idiot, and that applies to all SKUs, although the Home SKU is the absolute worst of the bunch about treating its users like they’re too dumb for their own good.
Linux, and also BSD too for that matter, at least actually respects its users’ intelligence, because Windows sure as hell doesn’t.
and i also say this as someone who is required to use windows at work. i despise windows, its so much harder for me to use windows given linux been my daily driver for a long time. im annoyed at powershell, explorer, clunky shortcut behaviors, etc just about every second im on windows. its a nightmare difficulty for me, but i also refuse to ever relearn windows stuff. i do remember a time when it wasnt annoying as fuck to use, could be nostalgia or that people just adopt.
using windows as a linux user is a nightmare. but if someone is adopted to windows, the opposite is gonna be similar no matter what.
I also use windows for work.
Shits stupid. Search in the start bar for an app that’s installed on your PC? Let’s open edge and show you web results.
Want to copy something out of teams? Here’s a copilot link you just accidentally clicked.
Thanks for accepting that TOS.
I’d love some say on my work computer but alas I’m a grunt.
I’d love some say on my work computer but alas I’m a grunt.
Not a grunt, but still run my work laptop like I am one. I use it exclusively for teams, outlook, office, etc, and nothing else work related though since I can still save to our (non-MS) cloud environment thanks to rclone. Which technically meets the criteria - which has nothing to do with the fact that I wrote the criteria. Totally unexpected benefit! Didn’t plan it that way at all. Nope, it was 100% because one of the partners will only use a mac. Promise.
Ah, assurance of compliance (pinky swear promises) over usability.
I once had to use a windows laptop that had to be stored in a safe when I wasn’t using it, could only use it in a room that was keyed entry (also where the safe was). But the firewall config was practically wide open, and it had direct access to the internet. I couldn’t even change it to be more secure. Ended up not connecting it to a network at all and just sneakernetting a thumb drive around so I wouldn’t risk catching blame if something got out.
Edit: Yes, a thumb drive. That wasn’t blocked either on this “hardened” system.
My wife is not technical and has no interest in adopting and learning anything.
The web works the same way regardless of the OS, and LibreOffice has all the same features as Word that she uses.
The “hard part” is choosing and upgrading hardware, and maybe installation (depending on distribution).
I mention this because I think we should evaluate these differently. With a preloaded desktop/laptop, I’ve had no issues with anyone that actually relates to Linux (except my BIL who was trying to build an arcade stick for gaming).
Explaining to my other BIL how to select hardware for his custom build, that took some time, as did guiding him through the installation.
im sorry but LibreOffice might have all the features of word but it certainly has a really bad user experience. i write often and libreoffice writer is difficult to say the least, not because of lack of features but a lack of most ‘little things’ and ‘tweaks’. i can definitely see someone switching to libreoffice from word, but saying its not ‘hard’ is untrue or a biased take in my opinion and using both suites (more familiar with libre though lmao).
i do agree that for a mostly web based user as is commonplace nowadays, a preloaded linux thats been decently built is gonna be a significantly easy switch.
on a slight tangent, but linux for me was a way to rebuild my love for computers after windows systematically fucked things. and i really enjoy the learning process. so personally i still encourage people to spend the time in the learning process atleast a bit
Yeah, LibreOffice stuck with the old UI/UX for better and worse. Luckily we do have a nice selection of Office Suites in addition to them. OnlyOffice, WPS Office, Collabora, KDE Calligra, Softmaker Office… surely there’s one for everyone on Linux.
What are you afraid she is going to have to learn? Where the apps are? You have to do that with a new Windows install. I find people vastly overestimate the complexity of Linux. The UIs have VASTLY improved. I go to the terminal when I want to, not because I’ve been forced there. Thanks to Steam and their Proton layer, gaming hasn’t been an issue. I think there are too many Linux users out there worried they’ll lose their wizard status if everyone finds out how much easier Linux is vs how it used to be. Or how most perceive it to be.
I’m a Windows Server admin by trade and have been daily driving Linux at home for almost two years now. I am VERY familiar with the Windows UI, and yes more technical than the average person. Linux on the desktop has been very easy. More people should be giving it a shot as Microsoft makes us jump through hoops to do what we want.
It’s easier. It’s also different. Sure, it takes time and effort to learn it, which Windows users have already done with Windows. That doesn’t make it not easier. Windows also has ongoing costs of effort with all the shit they change, or the shit they push on you that advanced users try to fight off.
No one’s saying it’s easy. They’re saying it’s easier.
Agree, but Linux (and Mac) both fall to the sunk time fallacy. “I’ve spent years learning to navigate around Windows’s bullshit, so doing the same with a new OS is time I’d rather spend just using my OS!” It’s bullshit and should be called out as such.
All three of the major OSes are piss easy to use. Linux, specifically if you’re using Mint or Ubuntu and it’s already set up. Some Linux distros (e.g. Arch) take some effort to set up, but you’re rewarded for doing so by knowing more about how your computer works.
And they all have advantages. Windows is used by more people and more programs are made for it. It also has some of the best compatibility. Mac is the best “commercial” OS. It’s made for humans, it’s UNIX certified (though that certification is like 40 years old or something), it’s not made by Microsoft, and it’s used by creatives. Linux is aimed more at coders and tinkerers and people who want to really own their computer and control it at a deeper level. All of them can serve a person’s needs well and they all run Firefox.
I have used all of them forever and it is no longer true that Windows and mac os are easy. Easy if you pay, maybe? If you don’t want to use certain things and want to give all data? Its a nightmare if you have a hobby or show or thing you like to do on a computer
Can confirm. Just switched to Linux about 2 weeks ago. I am happy enough, but there was a brutal learning curve. This was for a distro that is user friendly, too. I was able to install just fine, but actually getting my environment set up is an ongoing process.
Many Linux distros are getting there, but they still aren’t ready for casual users.
Wouldn’t you have the same experience if you moved from iOS to Android, never having used Android before? Does that make Android not ready for casual use?
If you have used Windows your whole life, there will definitely be a learning curve getting used to Linux and whatever desktop environment you choose to use.
I personally have better experience having casual users use Linux than Windows.
There is a difference between going from a GUI based OS to a hybrid GUI/console OS.
For both iOS and Android the only difference is where things live. The processes are still the same.
This is not the case with Windows and Linux. If you want to install something in Windows you go to a website and download an installer. For Linux, you find out if there is a package. If not you go to a website and see if there is an app image or zip file. You then need to know where to place the downloaded file, how to get it running (making it executable), knowing how to chmod and chown (it is better to have to do it like in Linux, but it is an extra step), and how to add it to your desktop (there is no right+click and add to desktop/create shortcut option in Arch based distros like there is on Windows). If there is a service component you may need to go into command line and systemctl to enable it.
Your comparison to iOS and Android is not really appropriate.
For Linux, you find out if there is a package. If not you go to a website and see if there is an app image or zip file. You then need to know where to place the downloaded file, how to get it running (making it executable), knowing how to chmod and chown (it is better to have to do it like in Linux, but it is an extra step), and how to add it to your desktop (there is no right+click and add to desktop/create shortcut option in Arch based distros like there is on Windows). If there is a service component you may need to go into command line and systemctl to enable it.
I don’t think I’ve ever followed that workflow to be honest. Except for when doing something niche and way above and beyond something a casual user would do.
Open the software center, search what you want. Click install. Done. I use the terminal to the same effect but that’s by preference. Installing packages as you described is not at all recommended… They won’t update with the system.
The “add to desktop” thing really depends on your Desktop Environment too. GNOME not really, KDE and most others yeah.
I don’t think I’ve ever followed that workflow to be honest. Except for when doing something niche and way above and beyond something a casual user would do.
I don’t think I’ve ever actually done that after maybe 2010. Package managers are awesome, and package availability is better than ever. Linux has improved massively in this regard since then, but its reputation still seems to be stuck in the “Well, if you’re serious about using Linux, you’re wasting your time with Ubuntu. You should install Gentoo and build everything yourself!” era.
Even on the odd occasion that I’m unable to find something in the repos, I’d sooner just find the project’s git repo, clone it and build it. Most of the time now, they have some sort of automated helper script that will build and install the package for you, and when they don’t, you’ve gone way off the beaten path and left behind any semblance of pretending to be an average user. But, hey, at least make isn’t a terribly difficult command to use.
You can download and run anything on Linux the exact same way as in Windows. One has all features of the others but more, it’s comparable because it literally is better on every account
I’ve been using Ubuntu on multiple PCs for years. If you think installing and learning a beginner-friendly distro is quicker or easier than running a massgrave script then you are genuinely clueless.
It’s true. You run one single command in cmd, then follow the prompts. It literally highlights what you probably want too, nevermind the guide online. Even Linux mint you still have to learn where stuff is and what it’s called. That’s not hard, by any means, but this is literally a single command and then you’re back to your routine.
Hahaha a script to amend an installation for now is so much faster than … OOPS my dist installed in 23 sec and has privacy features and zero bloat or ads from the get go
Linux is easier to use than trying to registry hack your way into a local account.
I am a Linux user, I dual boot Kubuntu and Windows.
On Friday I bought a new game on steam, checked on protondb and it is platinum, tried to launch it and it failed. I tried 4 different proton compatability modes and it failed to launch each time. While I am a sysadmin and am well capable of troubleshooting it, I really just wanted to play that game so I rebooted into windows.
If I hadn’t had that other win11 SSD in my machine, I would have had to not play that game because I had no energy to troubleshoot that on a friday night after fighting with linux all day at work.
Tldr: some times Linux is a seemless as Windows, but not always, even when it is supposed to be and is for others. Even if you have that activate windows watermark.
no, im a linux user. if someone doesnt want to dedicate time to adopt and learn, linux isnt “easier”. even if linux was as easy as windows (idk it can even be compared tbh); its different. different requires time and effort, if someone cant do that (for any reason, this isnt a judgement), its not an easy move.
I don’t disagree in general. However, my mom has been running Linux with a Windows XP skin for almost 8 years now without knowing she’s using Linux. Literally just keeps her from running a random .exe and she does everything on a browser anyway.
In my experience, it’s usually power users or basic users with very specific application requirements, who have trouble moving between operating systems. There’s usually a FOSS alternative to those applications, but often requires reworking a workflow or upskilling more than they want to. But they’re still basic users so it’s more a speed bump than a road block.
So yeah, most people can switch to MacOS without an issue, and the vast majority of those can switch to a distro like Fedora or Ubuntu and quickly feel comfortable.
Power users get stuck in this situation where they’ve learned how to do advanced things in Windows, have things tweaked to support more complex and peculiar workflows, but often don’t understand the actual concepts behind them. And even if they do understand the concepts, they still have to learn the alternatives in a new OS, and rebuild their workflows. Now, there’s a lot more ability to learn behind the scenes about the why and how with Linux and BSD, so I’d argue they’d be better off to just suck it up and get started, and they’ll be better off before long.
If someone is already informed enough to care about having a local account under Windows, seek out ways to circumvent the normal account procedure and feels comfortable applying edits to the registry, I think they have already excluded themselves from the category of people who are unwilling to invest time and effort to get their computer/OS running how they want.
What you wrote may apply to the general public, but not for the circumstances discussed in the post you’re replying to.
You need to dedicate time to adopt and learn how to get a local account on Windows and clear out the bullshit you don’t want.
I recently switched to Linux. At first I was surprised at how easy it was to set up and get working, then I was annoyed at having to look up how to do every little thing I know how to do on Windows and considered switching back.
Then I booted into Windows and in less than 10 minutes was fed up the whole OS. I realized I had to look up things just as often as I was on Linux, but in Linux it was because I didn’t know where it was, where as on Windows it was actively hidden from me and fighting me every step of the way.
Windows is in no way easier, It’s just the struggle you’ve gotten so used to fighting with every single day that you’ve forgotten it exists.
I’m not even going to sugarcoat it, Windows treats you like you’re a freakin’ idiot, and that applies to all SKUs, although the Home SKU is the absolute worst of the bunch about treating its users like they’re too dumb for their own good.
Linux, and also BSD too for that matter, at least actually respects its users’ intelligence, because Windows sure as hell doesn’t.
and i also say this as someone who is required to use windows at work. i despise windows, its so much harder for me to use windows given linux been my daily driver for a long time. im annoyed at powershell, explorer, clunky shortcut behaviors, etc just about every second im on windows. its a nightmare difficulty for me, but i also refuse to ever relearn windows stuff. i do remember a time when it wasnt annoying as fuck to use, could be nostalgia or that people just adopt.
using windows as a linux user is a nightmare. but if someone is adopted to windows, the opposite is gonna be similar no matter what.
I also use windows for work. Shits stupid. Search in the start bar for an app that’s installed on your PC? Let’s open edge and show you web results. Want to copy something out of teams? Here’s a copilot link you just accidentally clicked. Thanks for accepting that TOS.
I’d love some say on my work computer but alas I’m a grunt.
Not a grunt, but still run my work laptop like I am one. I use it exclusively for teams, outlook, office, etc, and nothing else work related though since I can still save to our (non-MS) cloud environment thanks to rclone. Which technically meets the criteria - which has nothing to do with the fact that I wrote the criteria. Totally unexpected benefit! Didn’t plan it that way at all. Nope, it was 100% because one of the partners will only use a mac. Promise.
(I’m sorry about your laptop)
Haha it happens. I work for a medical software company so they are terrified of HIPPA fines.
So it is what it is. :/
Ah, assurance of compliance (pinky swear promises) over usability.
I once had to use a windows laptop that had to be stored in a safe when I wasn’t using it, could only use it in a room that was keyed entry (also where the safe was). But the firewall config was practically wide open, and it had direct access to the internet. I couldn’t even change it to be more secure. Ended up not connecting it to a network at all and just sneakernetting a thumb drive around so I wouldn’t risk catching blame if something got out.
Edit: Yes, a thumb drive. That wasn’t blocked either on this “hardened” system.
My wife is not technical and has no interest in adopting and learning anything.
The web works the same way regardless of the OS, and LibreOffice has all the same features as Word that she uses.
The “hard part” is choosing and upgrading hardware, and maybe installation (depending on distribution).
I mention this because I think we should evaluate these differently. With a preloaded desktop/laptop, I’ve had no issues with anyone that actually relates to Linux (except my BIL who was trying to build an arcade stick for gaming).
Explaining to my other BIL how to select hardware for his custom build, that took some time, as did guiding him through the installation.
im sorry but LibreOffice might have all the features of word but it certainly has a really bad user experience. i write often and libreoffice writer is difficult to say the least, not because of lack of features but a lack of most ‘little things’ and ‘tweaks’. i can definitely see someone switching to libreoffice from word, but saying its not ‘hard’ is untrue or a biased take in my opinion and using both suites (more familiar with libre though lmao).
i do agree that for a mostly web based user as is commonplace nowadays, a preloaded linux thats been decently built is gonna be a significantly easy switch.
on a slight tangent, but linux for me was a way to rebuild my love for computers after windows systematically fucked things. and i really enjoy the learning process. so personally i still encourage people to spend the time in the learning process atleast a bit
Yeah, LibreOffice stuck with the old UI/UX for better and worse. Luckily we do have a nice selection of Office Suites in addition to them. OnlyOffice, WPS Office, Collabora, KDE Calligra, Softmaker Office… surely there’s one for everyone on Linux.
Personally I like OnlyOffice.
Seconded for ONLYOFFICE. And, yes, they type it in all caps.
What are you afraid she is going to have to learn? Where the apps are? You have to do that with a new Windows install. I find people vastly overestimate the complexity of Linux. The UIs have VASTLY improved. I go to the terminal when I want to, not because I’ve been forced there. Thanks to Steam and their Proton layer, gaming hasn’t been an issue. I think there are too many Linux users out there worried they’ll lose their wizard status if everyone finds out how much easier Linux is vs how it used to be. Or how most perceive it to be.
I’m a Windows Server admin by trade and have been daily driving Linux at home for almost two years now. I am VERY familiar with the Windows UI, and yes more technical than the average person. Linux on the desktop has been very easy. More people should be giving it a shot as Microsoft makes us jump through hoops to do what we want.
It’s easier. It’s also different. Sure, it takes time and effort to learn it, which Windows users have already done with Windows. That doesn’t make it not easier. Windows also has ongoing costs of effort with all the shit they change, or the shit they push on you that advanced users try to fight off.
No one’s saying it’s easy. They’re saying it’s easier.
hmm fair ig
Agree, but Linux (and Mac) both fall to the sunk time fallacy. “I’ve spent years learning to navigate around Windows’s bullshit, so doing the same with a new OS is time I’d rather spend just using my OS!” It’s bullshit and should be called out as such.
All three of the major OSes are piss easy to use. Linux, specifically if you’re using Mint or Ubuntu and it’s already set up. Some Linux distros (e.g. Arch) take some effort to set up, but you’re rewarded for doing so by knowing more about how your computer works.
And they all have advantages. Windows is used by more people and more programs are made for it. It also has some of the best compatibility. Mac is the best “commercial” OS. It’s made for humans, it’s UNIX certified (though that certification is like 40 years old or something), it’s not made by Microsoft, and it’s used by creatives. Linux is aimed more at coders and tinkerers and people who want to really own their computer and control it at a deeper level. All of them can serve a person’s needs well and they all run Firefox.
I have used all of them forever and it is no longer true that Windows and mac os are easy. Easy if you pay, maybe? If you don’t want to use certain things and want to give all data? Its a nightmare if you have a hobby or show or thing you like to do on a computer
not really
Can confirm. Just switched to Linux about 2 weeks ago. I am happy enough, but there was a brutal learning curve. This was for a distro that is user friendly, too. I was able to install just fine, but actually getting my environment set up is an ongoing process.
Many Linux distros are getting there, but they still aren’t ready for casual users.
Wouldn’t you have the same experience if you moved from iOS to Android, never having used Android before? Does that make Android not ready for casual use?
If you have used Windows your whole life, there will definitely be a learning curve getting used to Linux and whatever desktop environment you choose to use.
I personally have better experience having casual users use Linux than Windows.
There is a difference between going from a GUI based OS to a hybrid GUI/console OS.
For both iOS and Android the only difference is where things live. The processes are still the same.
This is not the case with Windows and Linux. If you want to install something in Windows you go to a website and download an installer. For Linux, you find out if there is a package. If not you go to a website and see if there is an app image or zip file. You then need to know where to place the downloaded file, how to get it running (making it executable), knowing how to chmod and chown (it is better to have to do it like in Linux, but it is an extra step), and how to add it to your desktop (there is no right+click and add to desktop/create shortcut option in Arch based distros like there is on Windows). If there is a service component you may need to go into command line and systemctl to enable it.
Your comparison to iOS and Android is not really appropriate.
I don’t think I’ve ever followed that workflow to be honest. Except for when doing something niche and way above and beyond something a casual user would do.
Open the software center, search what you want. Click install. Done. I use the terminal to the same effect but that’s by preference. Installing packages as you described is not at all recommended… They won’t update with the system.
The “add to desktop” thing really depends on your Desktop Environment too. GNOME not really, KDE and most others yeah.
I don’t think I’ve ever actually done that after maybe 2010. Package managers are awesome, and package availability is better than ever. Linux has improved massively in this regard since then, but its reputation still seems to be stuck in the “Well, if you’re serious about using Linux, you’re wasting your time with Ubuntu. You should install Gentoo and build everything yourself!” era.
Even on the odd occasion that I’m unable to find something in the repos, I’d sooner just find the project’s git repo, clone it and build it. Most of the time now, they have some sort of automated helper script that will build and install the package for you, and when they don’t, you’ve gone way off the beaten path and left behind any semblance of pretending to be an average user. But, hey, at least make isn’t a terribly difficult command to use.
You can download and run anything on Linux the exact same way as in Windows. One has all features of the others but more, it’s comparable because it literally is better on every account
Nah, these “hacks” are very easy. Easier than installing and learning even the most basic of Linux distros.
Tell me you haven’t even tried
…?
Without telling me you haven’t tried
Haven’t tried what…?
You haven’t installed and learned the most basic Linux system
I’ve been using Ubuntu on multiple PCs for years. If you think installing and learning a beginner-friendly distro is quicker or easier than running a massgrave script then you are genuinely clueless.
Nope, Windows is annoying and slow to install.
It’s true. You run one single command in cmd, then follow the prompts. It literally highlights what you probably want too, nevermind the guide online. Even Linux mint you still have to learn where stuff is and what it’s called. That’s not hard, by any means, but this is literally a single command and then you’re back to your routine.
Hahaha a script to amend an installation for now is so much faster than … OOPS my dist installed in 23 sec and has privacy features and zero bloat or ads from the get go
And if paranoid fresh install after activating.
Or if paranoid realise the telemetry and fingerprinting is built in and install a free os