Remember, no amount of brown suffering can make up for any amount of white suffering.
I know this isn’t necessarily about race, but it is another example of whites getting their way while browns get in the way. Just gonna add another tally.
The idea that indigenous peoples should be subjugated and forcefully integrated by settlers is an inherently racial problem. This was just as true in Canada and the US as it was true in South America as it is in Palestine today.
From the Atlantic to the Pacific, the indigenous people of North America should be free.
And that’s part of the reason the Israel-Palestine conflict is so contentious. Both peoples are indigenous to the region, having strong ancestral ties to the Canaanite peoples that inhabited the area over many periods of external rule and migrations.
That the Jewish people were once forced from the area but retained their identity in new lands doesn’t diminish their right to live in their ancestral home. Nor does it give them the right to treat their distant cousins (who also have ancestral claim) the Palestinians the way the state of Israel has.
I don’t know what the solution is, but many Palestinians and Israelis just want peace, contrary to the rhetoric of their governments.
I’m starting to lean towards a one state solution myself. Especially the more I’ve learned about the fact that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all used to get along in the area before the colonization of European and Western Jewish people into the area and displacement of the locals.
Give them democracy with a strong Constitution where everyone is equal, remove all traces of ethno nationalism or theocracy from the government (except for some public holidays). Integrate the security forces, courts, and other agencies of power together, enforce human rights, try to learn from South Africa, the Troubles in England, and I heard what they did in New Zealand to integrate with the indigenous worked, too. Mix up the schools so the next generation learns to grow up without the hate for the “other” their elders have.
At this point, one state solution is the only possible way forward. A two state solution will not work unless conditions radically change. Maybe it never would have worked, maybe the Israeli government only pretended to be willing to go with a two state solution.
Such a thing is unacceptable to the current Israeli government because it would end their ethnostate but i don’t see an option between that and complete extermination of the Palestinians.
the more I’ve learned about the fact that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all used to get along
The crusades would like a word.
I mean there’s a good 600-700 years of stuff that was happening from the end of the crusades to the late 1940s
You mean the time when the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, which enforced stability on it?
I do agree, if we put the whole area under a single Empire’s influence again it would likely be a lot more stable.
I don’t think any sort of one state solution that would exist between the two countries would classify as an empire, and “enforced stability” is a funny way to try to make people not killing each other sound bad. Also if you want to talk about enforced, that word seems perfectly applicable to Israel’s relationship with Palestine now.
@Tavarin the Crusades originated in Europe though. It wasn’t the locals infighting, more like warmongering tourists.
True, but it was due to religious hegemony in the region.
@Tavarin I don’t think it really was. That’s what the Pope wanted people to think at the time, but historians have other explanations.
The early Crusaders attacked other Christians as well as Jewish settlements and Muslims.
Many of the organization in Gaza understand this: they have a desire to fight for their freedom, but not a desire to lead.
Don’t forget Australia!
Last time I checked over half of Israel’s population is at least partly of Mizrahi descent. Ie. they have Middle-Eastern, Asian, or North African ancestry.
They’re not homogenously white which is blindingly obvious if you look at a picture of ordinary Israelis. That’s also ignoring the fact that ‘European’ Ashkenazi Jews were historically never considered white either.
Applying simplistic quasi-binary American notions of race, and simplistic understandings of colonialism, to a complex conflict is ignorant and stupid, and anyone who upvoted your comment is ignorant for doing so.
It’s about as dumb as when Americans go on about the US being incredibly ethnically diverse, because they’re too ignorant and racist to realise a country like Uganda is super diverse even if ‘they all look the same’ to an uneducated American eye. Applying simplistic American notions of race to humanity’s birthplace, oblivious to the genetic diversity this entails, and to the fact that countries divided by colonial powers without any respect for existing linguistic, ethnic, national, or cultural borders are likely to be super diverse too.
Last time I checked over half of Israel’s population is at least partly of Mizrahi descent. Ie. they have Middle-Eastern, Asian, or North African ancestry.
What is passing complexion? What is colorismo?
I assume those are American concepts, part of American racial politics that primarily focuses on skin colour. But those genuinely aren’t as relevant to countries half way around the globe.
America is not the world. Foreign countries are genuinely foreign. No, really. Allow me to illustrate:
Example 1: imagine you just heard someone complaining about racism against white people.
In an American context, you’d likely (often correctly) assume they were a right wing lunatic or a racist.
But here in Europe, the Sámi and Irish travellers would likely seem ‘whiter than white’ from an American racial politics perspective. IRC there are some theories that suggest Irish Travellers are the descendants of people who lived in Ireland before the celts arrived. We’re talking millenia. And yet they face plenty of outright and often pretty nasty racism to this day.
Example 2: Israel.
My understanding is that Mizrahi Jews (sometimes known as ‘Arab Jews’ although that’s considered a pejorative by some) historically and still do face plenty of racism in Israel from ‘white’ Jews…
And yet they also vote for Netenyahu and Likud en masse. The far right Itamar Ben-Gvir is (still?) the current Minister of Security. Iraqi and Kurdish heritage. Not ‘white’ by American standards. And yet here’s an excerpt from his wikipedia article:
Itamar Ben-Gvir … is an Israeli lawyer and far-right politician who serves as the Minister of National Security. … His father was born in Jerusalem to Iraqi Jewish immigrants. … His mother was a Kurdish Jewish immigrant … Ben-Gvir, a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. … He was also previously convicted of supporting a terrorist group known as Kach, which espoused Kahanism, an extremist religious Zionist ideology. … Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election … He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel. Ben Gvir is “widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities” … led several visits to the Temple Mount as activist and member of Knesset, contentious marches through Jerusalem’s Old City Muslim Quarter, and set up an office in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood which witnessed several evictions of Palestinians. On 3 January 2023, he visited the Temple Mount where the al-Aqsa Mosque is located, spurring an international wave of criticism that labelled his visit purposely provocative. As a lawyer, he is known for defending Jewish radicals and terrorists on trial in Israel. … Prior to entering politics, he defended Jews spitting at Christians as a “an ancient Jewish custom”. … Ben-Gvir is married to Ayala Nimrodi… The couple has five children, and they live in the Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba/Hebron, which is deemed illegal under international law, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir
TLDR: more complicated than ‘brown people/white people’
Colorismo is a Latin American phenomenon.
Also Israel is the 51st state so…
I don’t follow
Apparently very outrageous to ask for details lmayo
And when you consider that approx 47% of the population is (was) under 18, they really showed those ~5k kids!!
If they didn’t want to get bombed, then they shouldn’t have been born brown/Arab. /s
Those silly sausages!
should have just sold their place and moved away
The people talk about the “elected” government was their choice. Nah, they lied and preached democracy. Also, most of these children weren’t even born or could vote yet… 🙄
I attended American public school, just tell me how many 9/11’s that is so I can be appropriately outraged.
According to Wikipedia, the population of the entire Gaza Strip is about 2.3 million. 11k people is about 0.5% of the population. The 9/11 attacks killed about 3,000 people out of a population of approx. 300 million, i.e. 0.001%. If my math is correct, that would this death toll equal to about 500 9/11s.
But you need to think like this: Terrorist attack in 9/11: 3000 deaths Terrorist attack hamas: 1300 deaths
Antiterrorist attack 9/11: ~180.000 deaths Antiterrorist attack Israel: 11.000 deaths
So its still 5% of the deaths of 9/11 dont play down the human rights violations of the US because of 9/11…
Those numbers are useless without a scale of time.
Does it make it better that the US killed hundred of thousands in 20 years, than when killed in 2 years?
Killed civillians are killed civillians, in a matter of 20 years or 2 this is irrelevant.
What? Yes! Othwrwise you are comparing apples to oranges.
The US killed 20-30 times more in Irak and Afgahnistan. And I would say that 20 years of war is another horrifying factor.
If you look at the rate than /month israel killed more.
But even if you look /year the 9/11 war with 20,000-30,000 deaths ist still much more compared to 11,000 this year from israel…
This year. It started in October. Using your numbers, they have done half a years worth of murder in about 12th of the time, even with the USA drone striking weddings. Ones horrific, the other is a genocide.
This all started last month, not in January, we don’t know what the per year murder rate is but we can assume it would be around 132,000 if Israel continues the way they are currently.
Yum, yes duh. A higher rate of death over 20 years is much different then a single month.
So you say 200,000-300,000 deaths in 20 years is better that 11,000 in one month?
Wtf?
I really dont fucking know how americans can justify bullshit like this.
Its 20,000-30,000 dead people a year, I know its not like 11,000 in a month, but I really hope that israel is going to stop soon.
Do math. 200000÷20=10000 a year 833.3 repeating.
300000÷30= 15000 a year or 1250 a month
It is objective better.
Your high of you think 10000 a month is better than 10000 a year.
But Israel claimed that the Hamas attacks were equal to 9/11 or even Pearl Habor in scale measured by the country’s population. Biden even claimed that it was equal to fifteen 9/11s. So I think it’s totally fair and appropriate to apply the same rules and scale the death toll of the invasion by the population of the Gaza Strip.
America retaliated to 9/11 by killing 200,000 Iraqis So Iraq had population 0.5% of its population killed (for something it had no responsibility for). So Israel needs to kill 0.5% of Gaza… which is around 4000 people. I guess 15 9/11 mean 15*4000=60,000
Dont forget the afgahns… Another 160.000
Right, so Israel already killed almost 3 times as many Palestinians in retaliation as the US killed in Iraq.
3 9/11s down, 12 more to go.
No, that’s measuring in 9/11 retaliations.
It’s called onboarding and aims to garner public support by ripping open old scars. Just like the decapitated babies claim to dehumanize the enemy.
Okay, but does that invalidate my calculation?
The calculation was invalid to begin with. It’s like asking how many apples this orange was.
I do understand you replied to a satirical question with a satirical analysis, but still. I’m not a fun person, so stop having fun.
I’m sorry you don’t like having fun. Must be rough.
Like I said before, I have an American public school education, so that’s more math than I can do, so I appreciate it. I also have no emotional intelligence, and the news isn’t telling me to be mad about this, so all I can say is that this is the type of bad emotion that makes your eyes wet.
Don’t forget, if you disapprove of this, you are antisemitic and therefore a Nazi.
Oh don’t worry, I condemn hammas and the great deceiver Carl Marks every morning after the pledge of allegiance, and before I dumpster dive for my breakfast behind the McDonald’s.
How very patriotic of you. Good day sir.
These are the numbers being reported by the Health Ministry right? Honest question, are they actually controlled by Hamas like reports have indicated? If so, can we actually believe the numbers that a terrorist organization is reporting?
That being said, ANY civilian deaths are unacceptable whether they are Israeli or Palestinian.
UN seems to believe they’re not made up, don’t know how they’re verifying it
They’re not verifying at the moment, I’d assume. The ministry’s numbers were fairly accurate in the past and held up to UN investigations on many occasions, so they give them the benefit of the doubt.
It is definitely true that the numbers are unlikely to be exact. That is both for the reasons others have noted, propaganda is definitely at play on both sides of any conflict. A second reason for the likely imprecise number though, is that many casualties are probably uncountable currently as numerous buildings have collapsed under bombardment. Fully surveying those sites for bodies is difficult with continuing combat in the area. We know the buildings are destroyed due to surveillance and other intelligence sources, but can’t yet know how many people were killed and injured during the destruction.
There are also reasons that the UN and other international organisations take the figures seriously. This is primarily because of historical accuracy, this is not the first occasion of strikes in the area and surveys in the aftermath of previous incidents have generally shown reasonable reporting accuracy from the Gazan health authority. Additionally there are other international organisations on the ground and reporting corroborating evidence of mass collateral casualties. UNICEF has supported the reporting on the 3700 children killed so far, inclusive of civilians on both sides. Recently Doctors Without Borders here in Canada issued a plea to our government, based on their presence in Gaza, calling for ceasefire directly because of the unreasonably high number of collateral casualties.
At this juncture it doesn’t seem likely that the numbers are precise, but even a much more conservative estimate would be quite shocking and aligns with action in the Syrian civil war (for example) much more than with action in western invasions or Ukraine. That suggests that, at the very least, insufficient effort is being put toward limitation of collateral casualties. It’s also important to remember that while the three-to-one rule of casualties in war is very loose, we are likely looking at much higher numbers of wounded than killed. That is badly complicated by the blockades, lack of power and water, as well as current military operations against the remaining hospitals in the area.
Just my thoughts, not an expert.
From 1 look at their wikipedia page it seems so.
Both sides will say what is in their best interest. You see it in Ukraine war where both sides like to make up numbers, same with Hamas and IDF its in their best intrest to seem like the bigger victim.
Deci-mating is 1 out of every 10 people, so a bit more before Gaza is decimated.
