These kinda of things are why the US supports Israel. It helps destabilize the neighbors that don’t fall in line with US interests. The US fears a sovereign Middle East where they get to choose what to do with their own countries and resources, not just for the usual Imperialist reasons, but because of the importance of the petrodollar system.
That’s too 5-d chess for “the US” to pull off. I find it more plausible that the US supports Israel because Israel has a lot of powerful supporters in the US who manipulate public opinion and government policy.
It’s not 5-d chess, it’s simple politics of weakening potential rivals. If you look at history literally the same thing was done even by ancient hegemonies. USA is global hegemon and acts globally.
I grew up in the evangelical movement. I heard over and over and over again (some variation of this) when I was a kid, “The nation that refuses to aid Israel will fall! All of those who turn their backs on the Jews will burn when god returns.”
Those people are deadly serious too. It wouldn’t matter what Israel does.
It is not a complicated strategy. It just requires a large group that cares about the petrodollar. The US has a ton of those people in high places in government and finance.
The US invented the petrodollar.
I find it more plausible that the US supports Israel because Israel has a lot of powerful supporters in the US who manipulate public opinion and government policy.
Israel has powerful supporters in the US because it is in the interests of capital to support Israel. The higher interests of capital do understand why the Middle East must be destabilized for their own gain. They are fully aware of and influence, for example, the invasion to control Iraq’s oil fields and depose the government of Iraq that was acting too sovereign about it. Same for the Syrian oil fields seized and controlled by the US to this day. This is also why the US promotes the Saudis as an ally - they stabilize the petrodollar system. It is no coincidence that they also target an independent Yemem.
Powerful supporters are just the middlemen for capital, as are major media campaigns. It is not explanatory to say that powerful people support a country or policy. Of course they must do so, that is how every policy decision happens: the powerful people fall in line with the decisions of capital, decisions that may have been made decades ago but are now entrenched. Capital also leverages its close collaboration with the highest levels of the state. The White House is constantly consulting finance, economic advisors from finance, think tanks built to advance the interests of finance, etc (finance is the dominsnt wing of caoital in the US). And in the other direction, capital is constantly making threats and PR pushes.
Israel only has lobbying groups that are allowed to operate in American politics because the US was already dedicated to zionism. Otherwise there’d be, like, a Chinese AIPAC lobbying for the PRC or something.
As demonstrated by @theangryseal@lemmy.world the zionists in America are not all Jewish. In fact, there are likely many more evangelical zionists in the USA than Jewish zionists. Also, most of the jews I know (especially younger ones) are anti-zionist.
yes i am aware of all of this. none of that in any way interacts with my point, which is that “actually israel is secretly pulling the strings of the U.S. via shadowy manipulation” fucking reeks and it has the distinction of not being true
via shadowy manipulation […] and it has the distinction of not being true
Yeah I agree with this part. Because the manipulation is obvious and in your face and absolutely not “shadowy”.
AIPAC has made it clear repeatedly that they will carpet bomb any candidate no matter how minor with money if they support BDS or are even BDS-adjacent. Nina Turner, Cori Bush, and Jamaal Bowman have all had their political careers cut short for being even slightly critical of Israel.
If there was an organization like AIPAC for, say, Russia, an ARPAC, it would be illegal and its officers would be hauled off to prison because foreign influence in American elections is illegal. Yet even though it says right in the name that AIPAC is a foreign influence organization, they are allowed to not only operate but yield enormous power.
On the other side of the isle, Thomas Massie has said that every single member of the US congress has an “AIPAC Minder” who watches over them at all times and he’s even heard in meetings of Republican members statements like “I need to clear that with my AIPAC guy.”
It is illegal to boycott a foreign country in 37 US states. The state governments of a majority of American states actually passed a law saying “this foreign country in particular, if an American citizen boycotts or advocates for boycotting it, they can be prosecuted.” Can you guess which country that is? (hint: it’s not Canada)
exactly what the us allows them to do. I can only guess that kind old uncle sam has been feeding its billions in war change to israel for reasons more compelling than mere genocide (but that would suffice for some). a middle east ground “incursion” may be it.
because nothing could possibly go wrong with this. nothing at all.
Whatever the fuck they want. Both American parties are pro-genocide, and their voters are either too stupid or too scared to demand otherwise. Its relevant because Israel could be doing absolutely none of this without US backing. US voters had (and somewhat still have) an opportunity to demand from their candidates but as I said, either too stupid or too scared to demand it.
Support for Israel is “off the table” in American politics. It’s something that won’t even be offered to voters as a choice. I remember when globalization was like this. Between Ross Perot and Donald Trump you had zero candidates on either side who were anti-globalization.
It’s so shameful what greed and broken electoral finance laws in the U.S. have done to the country. Right now, an investment of a few million by a PAC can turn into billions of dollars from the government, via direct aid, passing laws, or simply looking the other way if a company isn’t being too obviously evil.
The primaries this year were highly telling in that regard - politicians were being nakedly bought in plain sight, but, again, because “you don’t fuck with the money” it’s not a question in political circles of whether overhauling campaign finance should be undertaken.
Yeah. The silver lining is that, for specific issues, eventually the dam bursts and public opinion can overwhelm. But it can take a long time.
Ross Perot was the most successful third party candidate in American history since William Jennings Bryant. And yet, for nearly two decades both parties refused to adopt his policies on trade despite their overwhelming popularity and the obvious benefit electorally.
BTW The bigger issue with campaign finance is our radical right activist supreme court. We used to have a lot of laws limiting what money could do in politics but the court has dismantled most of them.
Israel has amassed such an arsenal, it can continue this shit on it’s own for a good while. An arms embargo would still be appropriate though
Voters are demanding a cease fire and have been for a long time. No one is scared. A lot of people have enough national problems to worry about, that they put first
Israel has amassed such an arsenal, it can continue this shit on it’s own for a good while. An arms embargo would still be appropriate though
No way. First they can’t use some of those weapons without US approval. They’re made that way. Second, if they were running a more normal terror campaign (like shock and awe for example) that’d be correct, but they’re not. They’re carpet bombing Gaza and Lebanon using “precision” airstrikes. It’s an incredibly wasteful method of genocide that only has the advantage of being able to say “but we’re targeting terrorists”. No way they can keep up this nonsense without unlimited US weapons. Third, Israel would be eaten alive by its neighbors without US diplomatic (or “diplomatic”) support. Do you understand how much support any middle eastern leader would get by sayint “We’ll go fight Israel to save our Palestinian brothers”? The only reason it’s not happening and even Iran is leaving the job to its militias is because of the US carrot and stick.
What the fuck you doing, Israel?
These kinda of things are why the US supports Israel. It helps destabilize the neighbors that don’t fall in line with US interests. The US fears a sovereign Middle East where they get to choose what to do with their own countries and resources, not just for the usual Imperialist reasons, but because of the importance of the petrodollar system.
That’s too 5-d chess for “the US” to pull off. I find it more plausible that the US supports Israel because Israel has a lot of powerful supporters in the US who manipulate public opinion and government policy.
It’s not 5-d chess, it’s simple politics of weakening potential rivals. If you look at history literally the same thing was done even by ancient hegemonies. USA is global hegemon and acts globally.
I grew up in the evangelical movement. I heard over and over and over again (some variation of this) when I was a kid, “The nation that refuses to aid Israel will fall! All of those who turn their backs on the Jews will burn when god returns.”
Those people are deadly serious too. It wouldn’t matter what Israel does.
It is not a complicated strategy. It just requires a large group that cares about the petrodollar. The US has a ton of those people in high places in government and finance.
The US invented the petrodollar.
Israel has powerful supporters in the US because it is in the interests of capital to support Israel. The higher interests of capital do understand why the Middle East must be destabilized for their own gain. They are fully aware of and influence, for example, the invasion to control Iraq’s oil fields and depose the government of Iraq that was acting too sovereign about it. Same for the Syrian oil fields seized and controlled by the US to this day. This is also why the US promotes the Saudis as an ally - they stabilize the petrodollar system. It is no coincidence that they also target an independent Yemem.
Powerful supporters are just the middlemen for capital, as are major media campaigns. It is not explanatory to say that powerful people support a country or policy. Of course they must do so, that is how every policy decision happens: the powerful people fall in line with the decisions of capital, decisions that may have been made decades ago but are now entrenched. Capital also leverages its close collaboration with the highest levels of the state. The White House is constantly consulting finance, economic advisors from finance, think tanks built to advance the interests of finance, etc (finance is the dominsnt wing of caoital in the US). And in the other direction, capital is constantly making threats and PR pushes.
It self-consciously is the reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM
Israel only has lobbying groups that are allowed to operate in American politics because the US was already dedicated to zionism. Otherwise there’d be, like, a Chinese AIPAC lobbying for the PRC or something.
that’s just antisemitic “the jews are secretly in control” shit by another name
As demonstrated by @theangryseal@lemmy.world the zionists in America are not all Jewish. In fact, there are likely many more evangelical zionists in the USA than Jewish zionists. Also, most of the jews I know (especially younger ones) are anti-zionist.
But cheers on the Israel=Judaism hasbara
yes i am aware of all of this. none of that in any way interacts with my point, which is that “actually israel is secretly pulling the strings of the U.S. via shadowy manipulation” fucking reeks and it has the distinction of not being true
Yeah I agree with this part. Because the manipulation is obvious and in your face and absolutely not “shadowy”.
AIPAC has made it clear repeatedly that they will carpet bomb any candidate no matter how minor with money if they support BDS or are even BDS-adjacent. Nina Turner, Cori Bush, and Jamaal Bowman have all had their political careers cut short for being even slightly critical of Israel.
If there was an organization like AIPAC for, say, Russia, an ARPAC, it would be illegal and its officers would be hauled off to prison because foreign influence in American elections is illegal. Yet even though it says right in the name that AIPAC is a foreign influence organization, they are allowed to not only operate but yield enormous power.
On the other side of the isle, Thomas Massie has said that every single member of the US congress has an “AIPAC Minder” who watches over them at all times and he’s even heard in meetings of Republican members statements like “I need to clear that with my AIPAC guy.”
It is illegal to boycott a foreign country in 37 US states. The state governments of a majority of American states actually passed a law saying “this foreign country in particular, if an American citizen boycotts or advocates for boycotting it, they can be prosecuted.” Can you guess which country that is? (hint: it’s not Canada)
Underrated analysis
exactly what the us allows them to do. I can only guess that kind old uncle sam has been feeding its billions in war change to israel for reasons more compelling than mere genocide (but that would suffice for some). a middle east ground “incursion” may be it.
because nothing could possibly go wrong with this. nothing at all.
Whatever the fuck they want. Both American parties are pro-genocide, and their voters are either too stupid or too scared to demand otherwise. Its relevant because Israel could be doing absolutely none of this without US backing. US voters had (and somewhat still have) an opportunity to demand from their candidates but as I said, either too stupid or too scared to demand it.
Now Israel has carte blanc.
Support for Israel is “off the table” in American politics. It’s something that won’t even be offered to voters as a choice. I remember when globalization was like this. Between Ross Perot and Donald Trump you had zero candidates on either side who were anti-globalization.
It’s so shameful what greed and broken electoral finance laws in the U.S. have done to the country. Right now, an investment of a few million by a PAC can turn into billions of dollars from the government, via direct aid, passing laws, or simply looking the other way if a company isn’t being too obviously evil.
The primaries this year were highly telling in that regard - politicians were being nakedly bought in plain sight, but, again, because “you don’t fuck with the money” it’s not a question in political circles of whether overhauling campaign finance should be undertaken.
Yeah. The silver lining is that, for specific issues, eventually the dam bursts and public opinion can overwhelm. But it can take a long time.
Ross Perot was the most successful third party candidate in American history since William Jennings Bryant. And yet, for nearly two decades both parties refused to adopt his policies on trade despite their overwhelming popularity and the obvious benefit electorally.
BTW The bigger issue with campaign finance is our radical right activist supreme court. We used to have a lot of laws limiting what money could do in politics but the court has dismantled most of them.
Things I agree with:
Things I disagree with:
No way. First they can’t use some of those weapons without US approval. They’re made that way. Second, if they were running a more normal terror campaign (like shock and awe for example) that’d be correct, but they’re not. They’re carpet bombing Gaza and Lebanon using “precision” airstrikes. It’s an incredibly wasteful method of genocide that only has the advantage of being able to say “but we’re targeting terrorists”. No way they can keep up this nonsense without unlimited US weapons. Third, Israel would be eaten alive by its neighbors without US diplomatic (or “diplomatic”) support. Do you understand how much support any middle eastern leader would get by sayint “We’ll go fight Israel to save our Palestinian brothers”? The only reason it’s not happening and even Iran is leaving the job to its militias is because of the US carrot and stick.
Good point
Genocide, same thing they’ve been doing with infinite help from the US